Letter of the week: 6/16/08: Rancor and recrimination in Wallingford

[David]

Mosque: rancor
Editor:

The application to build a mosque on premises at 105 to 109 Leigus Road in Wallingford was withdrawn in the same dishonest fashion in which it had been filed. The applicant, stung by the thoroughness of the neighbors in uncovering the half-truths, misrepresentations, and departures from the requirements of the zoning code which were the hallmark of this application, utilized the time set for the presentation of the application to heap rancor and recrimination upon those who had opposed it.

The applicant credited the failure of the application on claimed malevolent motives of the neighbors rather than recognizing the numerous short-comings in the application itself as the cause for its failure. As a result, many of the same flaws present in the withdrawn application are repeated in the new application.

The fact remains that the application did not comply with the regulations, did not provide sufficient parking, and was accompanied by a traffic study which a peer review thoroughly discredited.

ATTORNEY VINCENT T. McMANUS JR., WALLINGFORD

[collie]

The peer review referred to in this letter to the editor states, in its conclusion, in fact as the very last sentence on the conclusion: "WITHOUT A DESCRIPTION OF THE ACTIVITIES (OTHER THAN FRIDAY AFTERNOON PRAYER SERVICE), THE TRAFFIC FLOW AND TRIP GENERATION CANNOT BE UNDERSTOOD AND THEREFORE THE REAL POTENTIAL FOR TRAFFIC AND PARKING IMPACT CANNOT BE ASSESSED."

McManus doesn't make his case.

[Wallyworldite]

The peer review referred to in this letter to the editor states, in its conclusion, in fact as the very last sentence on the conclusion: "WITHOUT A DESCRIPTION OF THE ACTIVITIES (OTHER THAN FRIDAY AFTERNOON PRAYER SERVICE), THE TRAFFIC FLOW AND TRIP GENERATION CANNOT BE UNDERSTOOD AND THEREFORE THE REAL POTENTIAL FOR TRAFFIC AND PARKING IMPACT CANNOT BE ASSESSED."

McManus doesn't make his case.

Did you read the traffic study? Please take a second and get (a bit) more informed:

http://www.mysunforums.com/content/RJ/content/myrj/Documents/traffic_study.PDF

Attorney McManus makes reference in his letter to the peer review that thoroughly discredited the applicant's traffic study. Please don't try to tell me that after that peer review that the traffic study had ANY validity... The fact of the matter is that the peer review just underlined the fact that the traffic study was more comical than factual. It is the applicant's responsibility to provide a telling traffic study..., the quote that you selected shows that there was no basis for the conclusions that it contained and therefore was a farce as they just pulled numbers out of the air. McManus does make sense..., it is the applicant's misrepresentations and conflicts that don't make sense.

[eds]

As I mentioned I did read it. And yes it does raise some questions about traffic that were not addressed in the study.

[collie]

Conclusions, in any report, cut to the chase. Care to comment on the sentence I directly quoted from the last sentence of the conclusion?

[eric]

Well lets see,attorney McManus,lets start with him...lets see,how much r these residents paying this circus clown....WAKE UP PEOPLE!Hes just taking your money...LOL....ummm,but then again u people deserve it!Biggots?nah,who wold ever call u residents biggots..its more like racist,ya,that sounds better..ur all making this town look like were all racist....like we already dont have that rep....

[Wallyworldite]

Well lets see,attorney McManus,lets start with him...lets see,how much r these residents paying this circus clown....WAKE UP PEOPLE!Hes just taking your money...LOL....ummm,but then again u people deserve it!Biggots?nah,who wold ever call u residents biggots..its more like racist,ya,that sounds better..ur all making this town look like were all racist....like we already dont have that rep....

I don't see the racism. IF anything, there is reverse racism going on here. The fact of the matter is that there is no reason to approve this plan other than sympathy for the applicant and a fear of being perceived as being prejudiced. Obviously you haven;'t read the traffic study that was done for this plan. If you did you would see that the proposal is a traffic hazard waiting to happen. Take the time, get informed. Attorney McManus is doing fine and the residents should be happy that he is representing them. He raises some good points. Points that are driven by the Planning & Zoning regulations. It would be refreshing to see the proponents taking this position. Argue the factors that are in the regulations instead of constantly crying racism. But, such are the tactics of those that have a poor plan to begin with.

[collie]

Legally, I think that last sentence of the parking study (which states they can't make an accurate assessment without all the facts) is going to seriously hurt McManus' case, should this ever go to court.

[Anna]

collie, I read the last statement is the peer review as an admonishment on Farid's traffic study. Their charge was only to evaluate their work. According to the review, the information they considered was inadequate to come to the conclusions that they did. Farid's study concluded no negative impact to this area. The review said it was not possible to draw this conclusion. It also stated that it was "arduous" to conclude that there will be no regional use. This should be considered in the next study. Varialbes were omitted in the original study, they must be included in the next one, to make their results valid.

[collie]

I take arduous to mean difficult. EDS has given good input on problems not being insurmountable if people want to work on them.

Still, that sentence, if interpreted in the way that you did, would have to suppose that Fahid is a bold faced liar. So too does the whole regional theory of possible useage. I took it a whole different way; that being, we were asked to review and our final conclusion is we can't come to a conclusion. I don't see how that would bolster the case for denial.

The R-J only printed the one document. Don't know that I have read Fahid's original plan; I only read the peer study posted on the R-J site. I must say the oddest thing I found, disturbing really, about the peer study review, were the almost encyclopedic entries on the faith of Islam. It seemed irrelevant to me and imagine if interpreted by a court a la the federal law, those entries are going to stick out like a sore thumb. Way too much uneccessary information re the faith of Islam. Obviously, different faiths congregate at different times of day and that would to me be the only relevant issue in terms of parking. Why was such a complete history of Islam included. It looked almost obsessive to me.

It doesn't seem fair to not take someone at their word.

[Anna]

The peer review defined the type of structure that is being built. It is completely relevant to the traffic study. They did use an encyclopedic definition. I don't understand why you would be disturbed by it. It was correct and served as background information.

I don't think my interpretation in anyway infers that Mr. Farid is a "bold face liar". The study evaluated the company he hired, their process and conclusion. I'm sure he hired them in good faith. It simply was inadequate. If you had seen this gentleman in action you would understand what I mean. It was a very poor presentation and raised a great deal of questions. This is why the P&Z board requested the peer review.

Who's "word" are you refering to in your last statement? I'm sorry, I am not following you. :o

[collie]

Well, Fahid has said it would be a family mosque, not a regional center. Yet the peer study seemed, in the end, unable to draw a conclusion, as if they were not "sure" how many people would be attending. That is what seems to me to infer that Fahid is lying, that the mosque could conceivably generate more traffic than he says. Of course, they don't say he's a liar, but they seemed pretty clear they couldn't draw a conclusion becuase they weren't sure how much traffic would be there in reality. I don't know what else to make of that, except an a suspicion the man's word is not good.

Why even go into depth concerning regional centers if the site hasn't been proposed as a regional center. Why not have studied family mosques? That is what was proposed. Do you see what I mean? Why drag traffic from regional centers into the picture at all?

The only conclusion that leaves me with is they don't believe Fahid is building a small family mosque, as he proposed.

Evident of his intentions is a scaled back plan, I should think.

[eds]

In thinking more on this situation, I was wondering if there could be a provision, or whatever you call it, to make Farid set up a checkpoint of sorts. The checkpoint would count cars for the capacity approved and when that limit is reached, the mosque is closed. Farid and the town can come to whatever agreement they want to and that can include just what I mention. Farid could voluntarily subject his mosque to those limitations.

If the limit was 100 cars and say 200 people, two per car, then limit it to that. Bang. No problems. Or whatever limit was deemed as the limit. That is what Farid would have to live by.

Or what about this: A shuttle bus. Use one of the commuter lots to house overflow and bus them in. Now you have only one vehicle and not many. As long as the building's public occupancy requirements are met, no problems.

I like to think creatively. Like collie mentioned, I really think the traffic issues are resolvable with some creative thinking on everyone's part.

Any luck on getting some neighbors together to put up money to buy the lots?

[Anna]

Thanks for clarifying, and actually this is Mr. Farid's third purposal. The first one was smaller. The second was larger. This third one is smaller. The Berlin mosque was also purposed as a " family mosque" on it's application. It is now a regional mosque. It's proximity to the highway and size, all similar to Mr. Farid's purposal, turned it into a regional mosque. Mr. Farid said himself, he wants to grow here and bring his family here. It is a reasonable assumption to think this facility will grow. Berlin is a good comparison, that is why the peer review used it. This area will have a difficult time absorbing any expansion. The parking at this site is maxed out at 150 or so. That number was his 2nd purposal, his first had 40 spaces, now it's 96 spaces. It seems even he isn't sure, what will be needed.

[collie]

Yes, it is an ordinary and mundane fact of life that many churches, etc. start out small and change, grow as time goes on. Many of the storefronts in Meriden are eventually able to occupy a "real" church. Some operate out of hotels.
Like the Jehovah's Witnesses outgrew their space, gave it to a mosque and are trying to build a larger space. The residential neighbors in South Meriden report no traffic problems with the mosque there. Too bad the peer study didn't look at that mosque instead of the regional one in Berlin. In the end, hopefully my final comment on this topic, I think it's like the lady in Meriden said re the Jehovah's Witnesses application: "how bad can it be, it's a house of God." For cripes sakes, if it starts as a family mosque, grows, they will either buy up surrounding homes as they become available or move to a larger space. I don't think it's a big conspiracy or anything. It's sort of a normal couse of affairs with religious meeting places.

[Wallyworldite]

Legally, I think that last sentence of the parking study (which states they can't make an accurate assessment without all the facts) is going to seriously hurt McManus' case, should this ever go to court.

No, actually it helps McManus' case. It is the applicant's duty to prove to the satisfaction of the commission that it has done a proper traffic study and that the conclusions therein are supported by facts. Because the Farid traffic study had no facts within it (only conclusions) it was a farce. If the traffic study is a farce, (given the many questions raised within the peer review as well as the recommendations therein, one can make this assumption) and the P&Z Commission approves the application, McManus wins his case. (period)

[eds]

So all Farid has to do is a proper traffic study and then his application will get approved. It's not like the traffic issues are impossible to solve.

[Anna]

Farid needs to present a proper traffic study, with reasonable conclusions and then the P&Z will decide. This is how it was supposed to be from the beginning. BTW do you have an engineering degree eds?

[eds]

No........

[collie]

God, that was a snotty thing to say to EDS!

[Anna]

collie, "snotty". Why? I've read his other posts, he is obviously like a bright guy. I wonderd if he was an engineer. He has said on numerous, previous posts that he didn't see this as a difficult situation to resolve from a traffic standpoint. I can't say if it is or if it isn't. It isn't my area of expertise. I thought it was a reasonable question.

[eds]

But I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night... :D

I was wondering myself why the question, but given the written aspect of this I figured it could be taken both ways, either as an inquiry or as collie took it which was to interpret it as a challenge to my opinion of traffic studies. But I took no offense at the question itself. It was legitimate on the surface and as it ended up, it was an innocent inquiry.

A quick CV...I have been a firefighter, defense contractor, armed guard, construction worker, and currently am a software engineer. Your initial question asked if I had an engineering degree, which I took to mean design engineer, (civil, architect, electrical, mechanical, industrial,etc..). Software engineers do not require a license in that regard so the answer was no. My degree is a computer science degree so I am more of a scientist I would say.

[Anna]

Thank you. Again, I do think of your posts are thoughtful and intelligent, though I obviously don't agree with everything you say. :D

[Wallyworldite]

In thinking more on this situation, I was wondering if there could be a provision, or whatever you call it, to make Farid set up a checkpoint of sorts. The checkpoint would count cars for the capacity approved and when that limit is reached, the mosque is closed. Farid and the town can come to whatever agreement they want to and that can include just what I mention. Farid could voluntarily subject his mosque to those limitations.

If the limit was 100 cars and say 200 people, two per car, then limit it to that. Bang. No problems. Or whatever limit was deemed as the limit. That is what Farid would have to live by.

Or what about this: A shuttle bus. Use one of the commuter lots to house overflow and bus them in. Now you have only one vehicle and not many. As long as the building's public occupancy requirements are met, no problems.

I like to think creatively. Like collie mentioned, I really think the traffic issues are resolvable with some creative thinking on everyone's part.

Any luck on getting some neighbors together to put up money to buy the lots?

A couple of months ago, Attorney McManus suggested that, if the parking lot building could not maintain the amount of cars that the applicant "represented" that the structure would attract, that they surrender their special permit, and stop using the property for this purpose. The Farids were not agreeable to this, and thus the questions as to the amounts of traffic and problems with parking ensued.

[eds]

So if I understand correctly Farid did not want to ensure that the limit would be adhered to if approved?

[Wallyworldite]

So if I understand correctly Farid did not want to ensure that the limit would be adhered to if approved?

I took it to mean that he "could not" ensure that the 80-90 person limit (representation) would be adhered to. This is confirmed by the peer review, as well as the town's fire marshall. The structure proposed in the current plan has a capacity of in excess of 500 persons. They are planning for 96 parking spaces. Where will the overflow go? Onto the sides of Leigus Road and Route 68. Is that a proper plan? I think not.

[eds]

There wouldn't be any overflow. Just like a theatre that is sold out or any other venue like a public meeting that exceeds the number of occupants for the building, they are turned away. They can set up a road block or what ever they do. I just think it would be easy to count cars and then send the overflow packing...

[Anna]

Ask the police at the Berlin mosque how well traffic is controlled there. Please take time to watch this spectacle. If it worked, wouldn't Berlin have already tried do it?

[eds]

Ask the police at the Berlin mosque how well traffic is controlled there. Please take time to watch this spectacle. If it worked, wouldn't Berlin have already tried do it?

Were they required to do it? I'm speaking of making the limit a requirement of the CO. Anything can be made part of the site plan or CO requirements that the town and the applicant agree to. Perhaps Berlin made no such requirement?

[collie]

Here's a joke for you - Berlin was just so relieved it wasn't another strip bar or porno store, they didn't CARE about parking at the mosque!

[oldnickel]

collie, that's funny cause its true

[Anna]

eds, to be truthful, I don't know the answer. But remember, this was just a small "family" mosque when they put the application in. They only needed 50 parking spaces to accomodate their worshipers. Why would P&Z have even thought about it? Do they have this type of agreement with churches? Should they have planned better, and realized that it might become a regional mosque? What could have clued them into this possibity? Let's see...maybe highway proximity, maybe the size of the building, maybe the builder stating he wanted to grow in the community? Is this sounding familiar to anyone? Berlin should be our guidepost.
You asked if the mosque was required to limit the number of cars and turn away the "overflow"? Like I said earlier, I don't know. But, wouldn't someone just do it, required or not if you saw this craziness caused by your place of worship. If you knew your neighbors were hiring people to keep their driveways clear from parked cars, wouldn't you attempt to alleviate it in some way? If it is something solvable, why isn't the Berlin mosque doing more now?


collie, by the time this is over, a bar on this corner might be just the ticket. :)

[eds]

If the mosque in Berlin is exceeding its approved capacity would that be something for which P&Z can send a cease and desist? I would say yes. They may choose not to perhaps, but I think Wallingford could enforce such a limit easily given the visibility of this. I am sure the neighbors would be very attentive to that limit.

[alwaysright]

after all, I really don't want a catholic church in my neighborhood either. all that incense, that chanting...the standing, kneeling sitting rituals and all that. And then there is Methodist. Who really knows hat they do in there? Not to mention the the KIngdom Hall places and the Episcopal churches. I say let's put them all in the Hub- where the city is trying to find a use for a wide open l;ot surrounded by undesireable neighbors and falling down buildings.

[Anna]

eds, I would think that if it were that "easy", they would have done it by now. These are questions that need answering. You use the words "easy and easily" frequently. When are things ever easy? Berlin and the neighbors around this mosque has not found managing this situation "easy" at all. Talk to a few of them. Apparently, people also sell fruit outside the mosque at Friday prayer. That must be helpful with traffic. All I'm saying is "easy" is a misleading term. I do however think your suggestions have merit.

[eds]

Easy is as hard as one makes it.

[Anna]

Okay Ghandi...

Sometimes things that appear simple, are in reality very complex.

Just because someone says something is easy, doesn't make it so.
:D

[eds]

As you have said, grasshopper.

[Anna]

Touche...;)

[mysharona]

Okay Ghandi...

Sometimes things that appear simple, are in reality very complex.

Just because someone says something is easy, doesn't make it so.
:D

Not so, in reality things are made very complex, by people who appear simple!!!

[Anna]

And the barbs continue...