When is it ok to burn the U.S. flag?

[eds]

You might initially say "NEVER!" But hear me out on this.

This thought came up in another thread and I wanted to explore it further. This is a philosophical thread. Please don't respond if all you have to add to the conversation is a flame, anger or some other closed minded answer. You don't have to agree with me, but show some respect.

Ok my question is this:

When a U.S. Flag is tattered and torn, the proper way to dispose of it is to burn it in ceremony because it no longer is able to function as a proper symbol of our great country.

I consider myself a patriot. I had this to say in another thread:

"To me, when my U.S. flag no longer represents democracy, no longer represents truth, justice, and the American way, no longer represents freedom but represents oppression, poverty, lies, injustices, totalitarian regimes, and indignation towards my fellow man, then and only then should it be burnt in ceremony because the way of life it used to represent has been tattered and torn to shreds, and that is what you do to a flag when it no longer serves the just purpose for which it should rightly stand."

What is your take on this? What happens when this country becomes so totalitarian, takes away our every freedom, dictates every aspect of our lives, when this country no longer represents what our founding father's have created? Our flag would then stand for oppression and tyranny, and who among us could then pledge allegiance to that? What other recourse would we have?

[rapuda]

I thought about your question eds. You brought up some good points as always. I have to say that I don't think it's ever alright to burn our flag other than for ceremonial purposes. At first I was going to say fly the flag upside down istead of burning it but then I found this.
http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagetiq.html
"The flag should never be displayed with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress in instances of extreme danger to life or property." It is an unreasonable stretch to argue that the political purposes constitute "dire distress." We recommend that people who wish to express their political views find a way to do so that is respectful of the flag. Remember that to some the flag represents the government of the US and its policies; but it also represents the promise as yet unfulfilled of the Declaration, it represents our freedom of speech, our freedom to practice or not practice religion as we choose, it represents American values, it represents one nation in its glory, it represents hope for a better future, and importantly it represents the sacrifices made in all generations to protect our freedoms.
The last part of the paragraph is why I say never to burn the flag out of protest. To some the flag is a symbol of all those who served and died for this country. To burn the flag would disrespect them.
Also, like this forum, everybody has their own opinion. Who's to say when our government has reached the point of oppression and tyranny and everything else you stated? When will we know for sure when our country no longer represents what our founding fathers created? Some would say we're there now. Others would say not yet. Of those who feel we're there now, is it alright to start burning the flag today? How do the ones that feel we're not there yet respond?
My personal feelings are that the U.S. flag represents our country in total. It represents our government, our land, our people. It represents our ideas and our actions. It represents those who served or died for our country. It represents our past, present, and future. To burn the flag for me, represents no hope for our future.

[eds]

I can understand your point.

As to when will we know. When we no longer have a constitution, a bill of rights, and our leaders become dictators with no hope of a regime change.

For example, say GW decided not to step down. The military sides with him. Protects him. Congress is disbanded and death squads keep dissidents down. National martial law is implemented. No rights are afforded anyone, no due process, and no justice. That's a bit extreme I know, but its like that.

I am not simply referring to what amounts to minor problems with our form of government. No system is perfect and I do not mean to say that just for a few problems we might have to just end our country's democratic model.

Right now we may not have so-called universal health care, the soc sec fund is nil, and perhaps we've screwed our reputation up with the world for now, but we know in Jan 2009 its going to change. Good or bad. We have things to work out sure, but I am not talking about that. I am talking about *really* bad things happening to our democratic model.

[Modernliberal]

You are not supposed to leave flags out in inclement weather. It is also supposed to be taken down every night before the sun is down. If you obey those rules than the flag should not get that tattered and torn. It is said that this will work forever. I don't think it will work forever due to the common element of wind. You can't take it down every time the wind blows. I do understand what they are saying though. They also have a point about it being disrespectful to our forefathers and everything they fought for. Also all of the men and women that have died for this country in one way or another. So my point is if people obeyed this rule I am not sure that it would be that big of a problem with it being tattered. Eds if you look up the definition of tattered you hit the nail on the head. Tattered is not just a physical attribute but also a mental state. Personally, that is why I do not fly the flag anymore. I feel that the government has let me down and I am not as proud as I used to be to display the colors. I know people will yell at me for saying that, but that part is my opinion and my opinion only. If you adopt it as your own, then it is also yours but I am not forcing that view on anyone. That does lead to another great question though, How many people display the colors, either way please explain.

Modernliberal:)

[eds]

I fly the original 13 stars and stripes for that very reason. The original flag of freedom. The current flag is actually our battle flag from the War of States Rights, aka Civil Warm and by flying it signifies that war is not really over. If you believe that statement that is.

Bought my flag from a company that hand makes each one with period dyes and cloth. I believe the manufacturing company was Anin and the local store I bought it at is on Hall Ave with a pretty indicative name of what it sells. Anin flags are proudly made in the USA!

But I believe rule is only for flags on flag poles. My flag is attached to the post on my front porch at an angle. I don't believe they need to be taken in during periods of rain. At night any flag may be lit so it does not need to be taken down. Mine is lit. Lit means being able to be seen by a casual observer. It does not mean flooded with light though that is also acceptable but not required.

Perhaps the flag I had in my mind when I started this post is the current flag. I prefer the 13 stars and stripes, but I have flown the Gadsden, 1st Navy Jack (which by the way is sanctioned to be flown by the *current* US Navy), and culpepper flags. There are many others like the Bennington Flag, Green Mountain Boys, Fort Moultrie, etc. As I said, these flags represent our forefathers better. They were their flags.

[rapuda]

I keep my flag out 24/7. I only bring it in under high wind advisories. I have a light on it at night and replace it when it gets battered or torn. I buy a flag that is designed for all weather use. I take the worn out flag to the VFW for proper disposal. They have a flag ceremony for all the worn flags that they collect.
As long as you have a flag that is designed for all weather and you illuminate it at night, you can keep it out all the time.
http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagetiq.html

[eds]

Both neighbors on either side of me are Viet Nam vets, and so is my father-in-law. I give it to one of them and they too take old flags to the VFW.

Always take your old flag to the VFW!

I think also the Boy Scouts too if I am not mistaken do this service.

[Modernliberal]

If anyone is interested please check this out, it is a link to the US history website section of flag, and flag usage. Everything, and I do mean EVERYTHING is on this link. I looked quickly on the site and there does not seem to be a weather stipulation, so I may have been wrong. Personal preference though I don't leave it out in inclement weather. Anyway read the information on this site, very interesting.

http://www.ushistory.org/betsy/flagetiq.html

Modernliberal:)

[UNiRAC]

EDZ, to your original vent ''my U.S. flag no longer represents democracy,''- I don't care what your beliefs are that the US and it's symbol it tatered and worn-out but it is only proper to [ not throw out some worn threads] bring all Flags of these American states to a Veterans group to be Ceremoniously disposed of.
'Don';t Flame me Bro' :confused: